Matt Lovell

Episode 71 – Seasonal Affective Disorder with Matt Lovell

 

Episode Highlights

00:04:19 Omega 3 supports natural serotonin production
00:07:15 Drinking coffee improves mood states
00:15:56 Too much of serotonin causes serotonin sickness
00:18:45 Identifying deficiencies in nutrients
00:23:26 Laughing  releases tons of immune and mood boosting factors
00:26:07 Basic pillars of a healthy diet performance
00:28:02 Knock on effect of consuming alcohol
00:32:22 Best source of calcium
00:38:17 5 key things that people could implement
00:41:42 Connect with the guest

 

Fitness Guide

 

Links

 

Transcript

Welcome to the Fitter Healthier Dad Podcast, where you can learn how to improve your diet, lose fat and get fitter in a sustainable and fun way without spending hours in the gym is your host Darren Kirby.

Darren: Welcome back to the podcast, guys. This is the number one podcast for dads in their 40s who want to improve their health and fitness. This is Episode 71, and we welcome back on the show today, Matt Lovell from Amino Man. Today, we’re going to be discussing SAD seasonal affective disorder and giving some practical advice on how we can overcome it. Matt, thanks very much for joining me on the podcast today. How are you?

Matt: Yeah, good. Thanks. Thanks for having me on again. Nice one.

Darren: No, thanks for coming on. It is quite timely and for the benefit of the listeners. The reason why I asked Matt to come back on is because he recently released a really interesting article, which I believe is quite timely for this time of year, and that is around SAD, which is the Seasonal Affective Disorder, if I’ve got that right, Matt. And I think that there’s many people that will struggle with that in normal times, you know, getting up in the dark, going to come home out of work in the dark. 

But obviously we’re in lockdown 2.0, as it’s being termed. You know, there’s going to be increased pressure on things like that. So I wanted to get Matt to come back on to really explain what SAD is, how we can identify it and then what we can do to kind of mitigate against it. So, yeah, I would see that Matt really began to kind of get some background as to why you felt it was necessary to kind of write the article in the first place and then. Yeah, into explaining it really.

Yeah, so really like saying it’s over to you and just to really kind of explain why you felt the need to to write that article in the first place. You know what SAD is, how we can identify and then what we can do to mitigate against it.

Matt: Right. So, I mean, I’ve been interested in this area for quite a long time because I personally used to suffer from quite a low mood state and in the winter months and I was thinking, you know, I was thinking, what is it? What might be causing it? And in that very human way, you’d sort of suffer from it. And then the spring would turn up and then you kind of forget about it. And then the following year, you’d be back in the hole again and thinking, what’s going on and what’s wrong? What’s wrong with me again? Yeah, and that’s why I tried to get the information out early, you know, around on the clocks. The clocks go forward  isn’t it? 

And then to get some strategies in place that people can start thinking about to prevent the low mood state, which comes under an umbrella phrase, seasonal affective disorder or SAD, the so, so academic kind of sadness that you might get. And it was sort of thought up by someone called Norman E. Rosenthal. He’s a guy in the 80s. But obviously it’s been around a lot longer before that. And it’s thought to be, you know, a collection of depressive type symptoms which are associated with the dark winter months and often often exacerbated by lack of light, lack of serotonin, and then possibly compounded by a lack of vitamin D from 1930 from the sunlight.

And that there’s a few other theories that we naturally slow down at this sort of time in a kind of hibernation type scenario. So, you know, we perhaps crave more carohydrates. So our back back brain is sort of forcing us to eat maybe more carbohydrates to lay down more body fat, because potentially the winter months are a threat in terms of food scarcity. So you get a little bit of that. You certainly you’re inside more. So there’s less sun anyway, but you’re also inside more. So you stay warm. 

There’s definitely a decrease in you and your natural ability to synthesize vitamin D from sunlight. And then there’s a few other things which are quite interesting, which so some countries like Iceland and Japan don’t tend to get the same severity of symptoms. Right. People think that it might be because they have a much higher intake of omega three from fish and that they’re naturally getting a serotonin boost for the Omega Three Pathways, which supports natural serotonin production.

So, yeah, that’s so that’s that’s the sort of collection of things that can happen, right, all at once. You know, and and and contribute to that low mood state. I think there’s some other things that happen as well in that we’ve got Christmas, which is quite good fun. But then invariably after Christmas, we spend lots of money and we’re sort of waiting for that January pay packet. So there’s a lull in that sort of sense. All the merriment out of the way. Yeah. And suddenly you think you’re out of the winter, but you’ve got a good couple more months where it’s still going to be cold and dark and windy and and all that, and you might not have that much cash flying about.

And right now, we’ve also got all this locked down madness, which is making people you know, it’s a stress on stress, isn’t it? Because people have got worries about their income, the jobs, the uncertainty around the future, even though the vaccine news is very welcome, that’s going to be a few months before it’s probably widely available. And and then and then, you know, it’s thinking, well, what can we do? What can we do to turn that around? And I think.

It is very common, you know, and it’s something that people should talk about more particularly and the male population and so all the things that can help combat seasonal affective disorder can also help you come back to a limited stay in general. But I think the main neurotransmitter to focus on would be serotonin. Mm hmm. But you can, you know, you can build up in a variety of ways. You can build up to be the sort of classic mindfulness type stuff, which is it’s almost talked about too much in some ways. Somehow people banging the mindfulness drum, even that works sometimes when it’s everywhere. People switch off to that a little bit. Yeah. 

So it’s thinking about things which can keep you happy generally. Yeah. And I did another post on that this morning actually. But there’s some really good things that have got nothing to do with mindfulness or supplements that can help keep the happy couple that spring to mind. One was when was playing bird songs. OK, so the dawn chorus really switches on happy chemicals, drinking, drinking coffee can really help because it’s associated with improved mood states. The B vitamins that you get from things like Marmite. They came up, they came out good. They’re very good for increasing stress, resistance and mistakes.

And then and then all, you know, the normal stuff such as great being grateful, kindness, sort of reaching out to people and picking them up, which is sometimes easy to forget to do if you’re overly focused on the stuff that’s going on in your own life and and if you’re at home a lot, too. And then and then you can do some of this stuff. So if it’s not very light outside, then you can bring those light boxes inside you. So, you know, you can get very good medical grade light boxes off of Amazon. And then the idea there is as soon as you wake up, you switch those on and they give you enough kind of natural light to counteract some of the depressive symptoms you get from not being exposed to enough normal sunlight. And then you can start thinking, well, if the sun’s not shining, then of course you can. 

You can put vitamin D in the system via vitamin D, which contains foods and plus supplements. Yeah, it’s normally a good idea to do a bit of both. So lots of oily fish and then maybe a good vitamin D supplement on top of that. Yeah. I mean that that has a dramatic effect on Mood State.

Yeah. I think. The first time I tested my vitamin D, it was like twenty seven, twenty eight. Right, OK, super, super low. And he sort of wonders why you’re craving sunlight all the time. And as soon as it’s sunny, you’re out there sunbathing and suddenly you feel burned all summer. Yeah. Because you’ve corrected the deficiency. Yeah. And I think, I think actually also there is as well as counteracting some of the negative seasonal effects of winter is also nice to roll with the seasons a little bit. Yeah. We can, we can perhaps squirrel in, maybe get some more sleep, you know, earlier nights and and the the winter season in athletics, often it lends itself to some heavier training with heavier training, then it’s good to really focus on intensive recovery. 

Sleep is a really good way of an essential way that we undergo the recovery process. So, yeah, you know, opportunities in lock down present themselves. So you can actually perhaps time a siesta. Yeah. In the afternoon. And especially, like you said, you’re going into an intensive period of training Tuesday and you can do your morning session. Good, good recovery food and then perhaps a little snooze and then it’ll set you up for the second session of the day.

Darren: Yeah, I think there’s loads that you’ve kind of highlighted that. But I think at the start, I think it’s very important that we’re introspective so that we are more aware about how we’re feeling and being aware of the time of year than it is. And, you know, just that introspection to know how you’re feeling and not brushing it off, because I think particularly men would maybe just brush off the fact that, you know, it’s that you’re not feeling a bit the feeling a bit low or they’re not really on it and just dismiss it.

And the fact, well, it’s over there working too hard or whatever, and that might well be the case. But it’s that introspection which makes you kind of stop and pause and think, well, really, you know, I shouldn’t need and shouldn’t be feeling nice and don’t need to feel like this. And what do I need to do in order to kind of change things? And like you said as well, rolling with the seasons? I think that’s a very important distinction to make, is realizing that we are coming into that winter period. We do have less light, less vitamin D. 

And there’s obviously, like you said, you know, that’s the period that we’re in the moment we are lockdown, Covid and everything else, you know, naturally, people are going to become a little bit more stressed and stress shows itself in different ways, isn’t it? Not necessarily. You know, if you’re an extrovert, a person, you might show stress outwardly, but sometimes people keep that stress in and they just kind of dwell on it.

Matt: They do, they really do, and and that’s the thing when you’re on your own a lot more often than you would be otherwise, it’s very, very easy to slip into that introspection and negative self talk if you’re not careful. Yeah, there’s some nice questionnaires you can do actually around Mood State. So I listed some of them in the blog. There’s a neurotransmitter questionnaire on a site called www.bravermantest.com. And then there’s a profile of Mood State on a site www.brianmac.co.uk. 

So they’re they’re quite nice places to start. Just if you suspect you’ve got a low mood, that you can get some of numbers on it so that then once you put a couple of protocols in place, you can then measure their improvement. I mean, I think that’s an essential thing that people don’t do too much. Again, one of the reasons perhaps that you can slip back into the same habits the following year, if not quantified anything. Yeah. And acknowledged that as an issue and got some numbers on it. Yeah. And then there are some there’s some slightly more advanced mood stabilizing natural supplements. I think they are useful. 

It particularly if you suspect low serotonin five HTP is a really good one. OK, now that that comes in varying strengths and 50 milligrams is quite a high dose, you know, if you’ve had too much, you can wake up a bit even more foggy than you might do anyway on a winter’s morning. Right. But you can take much more than that if you’ve got a low mood state. But it’s good to start with a low dose rather than only some of the supplements I’ve seen on Amazon. The like 400 milligrams. So that’s a lot is better to buy the smaller doses and then build up if you need it. 

And it’s important to note that anything that you take for serotonin shouldn’t be used in conjunction with pharmaceutical antidepressants. So basically more or less all antidepressants, SSRI like Prozac, etc., work by stopping you, your body or your brain breaking down serotonin. So you’ve got the you’ve then got more serotonin in the system. So if you then throw in a serotonin precursor plus an SSRI, you can get too much. And that can cause serotonin sickness, which is not good. So, you know, if you’re already on medication, then don’t be messing too much with the serotonin precursor natural supplements. 

In other words, you can take fish oils and things like that, which they work as they work alongside that kind of medicine. You can take vitamin D, that’s fine, but you wouldn’t be taking five HTP or another very good natural antidepressant, Herb, which is St John’s will. That’s also one to watch because it’s powerful for serotonin, but also speeds detoxification of other medications. But yeah. For liver enzymes so it can actually make your medication less strong. It was a case once of a lady on the contraceptive pill who was taking some pills and then she got pregnant because of the effectiveness of the medication. Says this is important. Yeah, you can take your sort of zinc and magnesium sleepy formulas you have that they’re normally all fine. They work alongside, but mostly herbs like Saint John’s Wort Valerian. It’s always good to label, check and double check any interactions with medication.

Darren: Yeah, that makes sense. So when we when we like looking at this and we potentially think that we have SAD or been affected by it, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that the only way that we can really determine if we’re deficient in vitamin D, vitamin B, serotonin, is really a blood test?

Matt: Absolutely, yeah, I mean, certainly for identifying deficiencies in nutrients, the blood test is really the only definitive way. There are clinical symptoms of deficiencies. If I can send you I’ve got a spreadsheet of the big ones. And those can be used alongside a blood test. But normally what those do is prompt the blood test. They might see that you’ve got lots of white spots on your fingernails. Right. Is one of zinc deficiency. And then you might then go in to do a blood test to see if it really is a zinc deficiency or have you just hit your fingers with a hammer too many times? The difficult one to test for properly is for the neurotransmitters. OK, because that’s that’s tricky from blood. 

So there are some salivary neurotransmitters tests. And there’s a good book on this area called The Caliche Method, where he’s got some very good functional tests for looking at neurotransmitter deficiency. But the neurotransmitter deficiencies or imbalances are much easier to do the questionnaire, but obviously that has a clinical limitation because it is just a questionnaire. And depending on how you feel at the time of doing it might lead you to suspect a deficiency which isn’t actually there. So it can give you a kind of ballpark sort of situation to work with and then you can go on to do some of the more salivary based tests.

Darren: So if we believe that we are suffering for like I said, and obviously many people are not going to do a blood test, however, what I would say is it is very, very insightful now to actually have that done. And there’s so many things online. But what I would say also is that you need somebody to decipher it for you, a medical practitioner or something like that. And. So not many people will have a blood test, but if we believe we kind of suffer from it, what would you say before we get to supplementation? What would you say are the go to things that you would recommend that people could do things like sleep and get out in whatever light that we do have, things like that?

Matt: Yes. I mean, these are the things that everyone knows they need to do, but it’s quite easy not to do them. It’s the kind of ABCs of keeping yourself strong as a human. And it’s the little things that if you skip one or two, then it can lead to a cascade of events which then unravel and then lead you to know less healthy habits. Yeah. And it starts, I think, with keeping to a really good structured routine.

And that would include, you know, brushing your teeth and having a shave. And I just feel in my bed and realize I have a lot to shave a couple of days and it would start with the simple stuff. And then and then. Yeah. You know, if you can get out for a walk in the morning for 30 minutes to live up to an hour, that’s going to be a great way to start your day because you’re going to get a blood flow like exposure and exercise. And you can then, you know, listen to a podcast and you can work through the ins and outs of your daily routines and everything else like that. And then that form for me is a keystone habit, because if someone’s exercising in the right way, it automatically leads to better food choices. Yeah. And then with the food choices, the more the more carotenoids you can eat. So that cliché eating the rainbow, yet that ties directly into a more positive mood. So there’s, you know, all the little chemicals in plants, herbs and spices help everything in the body work better, including serotonin and all that sort of stuff.

And then and then I think it’s on to you know, we’ve got a requirement for two things. We’ve got you know, humans have a hunk of two things mainly. And the first is nourishment. And the second is basically love or social interaction. So, yeah, then you have to think, right, what’s happening around me with my relationships with my coworkers. And you need to socially interact and, you know, along the way trying to have some fun. So we all know that if you can laugh, suddenly you release tons of immune boosting factors and mood boosting factors, you know, but the laughter and the play comes on the back of having a sense of purpose. Right. And that’s the bit which is tough for some people who might have lost their jobs. Yeah. You know, being an uncertainty because they made their self worth might be defined through their work. So then they might be in a situation where they got to pivot quite quickly and go back in and reestablish that somebody. And so that’s when it starts to get more complicated. Maintain positive balance.

Darren: Yeah, that is what I like about that is it’s very interesting, but I think is hugely overlooked because I think as a, whatever you want to call it a species, a human race, whatever. We love to go and look for complicated stuff. Right. And, you know, people listening to this hearing, you talk about purpose, self-worth and stuff like that might think that it’s all a little bit woo woo. But actually, it’s not what drives us as human beings. We have to have a sense of purpose, you know, and like you said, and I think that’s such a key point, the fact that you said that we tie our self-worth to our careers, to our income, to that type of thing. 

And I think that’s when that’s taken away from you. That is a really hard thing so I recognize that that’s happened and be conscious of yourself that that’s now going to detrimentally impact you instead of what we’re all to think positive things. But yeah, that’s right. And I agree with that. But I think you have to stop and reflect on that. And I think that’s really important. What you said, though.

Matt: Thank you. You know, the thing is that, you know, you talk to your friends and this is happening now, you know, lots of people are, you know, in a shaky place. I think I think if we go back to the food choices. Yeah. You want to not be disrupting your blood sugar too much. So all the basic pillars of a healthy diet performance know hydration, balancing blood glucose, taking essential fats, lowering inflammation. Those are all vital. Yeah. And everything around sleep as well. So optimizing sleep is as well as you can. Yeah. Not being deficient in any nutrients. 

And then I also think I think the other key thing is, you know, in difficult times humans will seek methods to dull the pain so they can be booze or other recreational drugs. And if you look at the statistics in that area, it’s quite frightening the amount of people that are relapsing back into addictive patterns right in the lock down, because even if I’ve been speaking to clients who might have had social drinks two or three times a week. And a lot of time when they drink most nights is they don’t have to be up, they don’t have to commute. You know, they’ve got more time on their hands. And then suddenly your weekly units of at least doubled. And we all know that if you do too much of that, that can exacerbate all the low mood state stuff.

Darren: Yeah, massively. I think that has a huge knock on effect because it’s not the act of actually consuming the alcohol in the first place. Is that like you say, it’s the knock on effect. But the knock on effect is not just the hangover the next day if you drink that much, but it actually does pan out over like two to three days because I now I know I don’t really drink any more, but I now know that if I do drink, I’m going to be faced with the depressive state for the next two to three days. And it’s really once you once you’re aware of that, it’s not a nice place to be in. So I think whilst we might make light of the fact I’m having a few more drinks, I’ve got to stop drinking or really just take the time to stop and consider what that’s doing to your state further on down a few days later.

Matt: That’s it.

Darren: So, Matt, with we I want to really delve into that you’ve talked about food. I think that’s a really good point as well. The plate, the rainbow, and making sure that we have a nice balanced plate with hydration and sleep. So like you say, the pillars of, I guess, wellness almost. But a lot is spoken about vitamin D and obviously vitamin D naturally comes from like I think I listened to something last week where they said that the government recommendations for a vitamin D intake with something like 500 IU, which is not enough as far as I understand. You probably correct me if I’m wrong, but so there is a big shift towards kind of supplementation.

But one thing that I believe these two things, actually one is, is the supplementation and the fact that I believe you shouldn’t be taking vitamin D on its own should be taken with K2 because that’s the transport mechanism. And then there is the whole kind of lightbox scenario. And what I mean by that is there’s been a big shift towards infrared light and so on. And so I’d really like to get your take on those two. Really.

Matt: Okay. So I think the point one on the vitamin D, I think you’re right. I think, you know, 400 IUs was better than taking none at all. Yeah, is not really going to support an optimal vitamin D throughout the winter and I think I think for most people, 2000 units is a safe place to maintain vitamin D and you know, I mean, I take at least five thousand and my levels still need a boost sometimes. The vitamin D Council recommends a thousand units per 25 pounds of body weight, so 12, 12 kilos of body weight. Now, that’s that’s quite a lot. That might be a bit higher than I’d recommend without a blood test. But I think if you’re a larger male, four to six thousand and if you’re worried, just take two thousand from October through to April. 

It’s been known, I think 1974. There was a letter written to The Lancet about two girls who had rickets and they were put on massive doses of vitamin D like hundreds of thousands of units. And they had no improvement in symptoms. And then they went on for further tests and they were both found to be magnesium deficient. And once they corrected the magnesium deficiency, the vitamin D began to work in, then rickets corrected. So in terms of cofactors, you need magnesium to tell the calcium to go to the right places. The vitamin D is going to support the calcium trying to get into the bone, but it won’t get into the bone without adequate magnesium.

And what’s known now, as well as K2, is at least as important as vitamin D for bone density. And it needs to be, you know, also taken as a cofactor. Why can you take them separately? I mean, I put them all into one product. That’s so it’s my vitamin D a bit more like a sort of bone multivit without any calcium. Calcium supplementation is a bit. You said it’s an area of controversy because high doses on their own are good for some things and bad for others. Yeah, it can be good for bone. Good for colon health, but bad for atherosclerosis, so bad for furring up the arteries. See, that’s why I don’t like to put calcium in unless I’ve got a bit more knowledge about someone’s needs at that time. 

And the best source of calcium is basically made from ground up bones, and you can you can get there’s a company called MRM and they do one ….. And also you can get that calcium from making bone broth. Yes, you could. You can do that. And then you only only take extra calcium if you know you’ve got low bone density. Otherwise you can just get it from food. And then yeah. The Lightbox is so, so on one hand you’ve got, you’ve got a lightbox. Which would just be a very bright light. Yeah, so. The reason that will help with seasonal affective disorder is sometimes you can get prolonged.

Basically, your melatonin doesn’t switch off, so serotonin becomes melatonin, which makes you go to sleep. But then in the morning you want you want you know, you want your cortisol to go up and you want all the melatonin to go away so you don’t feel sleepy in the morning. And the fastest way to get rid of that is with lots of natural light. Right. It’s one reason why you shouldn’t turn the light on when you go to the bathroom, if you go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. Yeah. The sooner you turn the light on, it will switch off your melatonin and make it harder to go back to sleep. Right. Okay. My sense, though, is if you got those light boxes and that’s going to kind of trick your brain into thinking it is definitely morning and not night. And then you’re going to feel less generally lethargic.

And then the infrared is a slightly different story, so that’s that’s coming at a different light wave. And I’m a big believer in using infrared as a healing accelerator, and also potentially as a detoxification support, i.e. infrared sauna or or the big, big kind of infrared sleeping bags that you can buy. I think I’ve used one of those for a few years now, I’ve got the kind of blankets that you can wrap around your back or your leg or wherever that might be hurting too much. And it really does double the pain and I believe it accelerates healing, although, you know, it’s equal one, isn’t it? I haven’t done the you can’t you can’t repeat the same injury and do the experiment on yourself.

But they are really soothing. And the big, big sauna sleeping bags, again, you sweat like crazy. So you, you know, you get the systemic benefit from sweating, but obviously you can exercise the same thing. Yeah, but I think it does do something a bit a bit deeper in the tissues and I think you can overdo them a bit, so you definitely feel you feel revved up afterwards, if I if I’ve done them late in the day and even like five o’clock, sometimes I can’t get to sleep at night. Now, the evidence on it raising metabolism is a bit split. I don’t think it’s they’re not they’re certainly not a magic way to burn more fat. But I’ve personally found I feel slightly more like maybe slightly raised heart rate afterwards. 

But that could just be the effect that you expose yourself to quite high doses of heat for an hour, it’s difficult to distinguish between the two. But overall, yeah, I think, you know, for the small blankets are under 100 pounds. So they’re affordable adjuncts. If anyone exercises hard, there’s always something that’s niggling a bit which needs some smoothing. They’re great for lower backs. I know you and I both suffer with lower backs. And so if I’m sitting at my desk with the slightly sore back, I’ll just wrap that around the lower back. Yeah. Really good.

Darren: Yeah. No, that’s that’s quite insightful. That’s I think the vitamin D conversation I guess or subject is is one that’s very interesting. I think the levels of vitamin D is quite, you know, quite profound in terms of the amount that we need, really. And so I think, you know, if we summarize the kind of things that people can do, I think the first thing you know is to be aware in the first place. And then the second thing really is to go back to basics and look at all different areas of your life, from your diet, from your sleep to getting outside to get him moving, I think it is really, really important. But, Matt, what would you say would be the five key things for you which people could implement?

Matt: I think. I think number one would be to keep exercising outside and exposing yourself to as much natural light as you possibly can.  number two, eat as healthy as possible, as much surely fish and and fruits and vegetables as you can see the rainbow plus plus lots of omega three. Number three would be supplementing with vitamin D. And it’s hard to put them in order, I don’t know if they’re necessarily in order, but these are the top five. Number four would be personal, looking after yourself, your relationships, your mood state fire all this stuff we spoke about earlier. And then number five, sleep. 

Darren: I think the biggest one for me out of all of that is the relationships side of things. And you know what? I’ll be the first to admit that probably a few years ago I would have absolutely scoffed at the fact that we have to keep the connection and relationships going and things like that. But after kind of understanding the oxytocin, the human connection that we need to have dramatically affects us. I think that’s a huge underestimate. And I would probably hazard a guess that a lot of people listen to this, but we haven’t even considered that unless you are very tuned in to yourself.

So I think that’s a really important point to make. Yeah. To point out. And then obviously you’ve got your supplement, particularly around the D and the K2 to which I think is a good formulation with did you say with magnesium in that as well?

Matt: Yeah, that’s got that’s got magnesium, it’s got a little bit of zinc, it’s got some manganese, some boron cesco all the things which make sure calcium ends up in the right places in the body, not in the wrong places also.

Darren: Yeah. All right. That’s fantastic. Well, I do appreciate you coming on again today and talking about the SAD and I hope people have got some great value from this. And now can you understand when they’re being affected by, you know, the simple things that they can do for it? So before I let you go, let’s find that where everybody can connect with you, you know, Amino Man and all the rest of it.

Matt: Yes. So www.aminoman.com that’s the easiest place to sort of read up on everything. And that’s just the word Amino and the word man.com

Darren: Perfect. Well, thanks very much for coming on. And we look forward to catching up again soon.

Matt: And thank you mate. Thanks a lot.

Darren: Thanks for listening to the Fitter Healthier Dad Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please subscribe. And I would really appreciate it if you could leave a review on iTunes or other things mentioned in the episode will be in the show notes and a full transcription is over at fitterhealthierdad.com.

share this post

Share on facebook
Share on twitter
Share on linkedin

Praise from our clients

plat

Get Started Today

Join the 1000's of 40+ Men who are losing fat and getting fit